Also, LGBT people are being arrested and detained there. It really looks a lot like classic 20th century fascism (and unsurprisingly, is a response to similarly bad economic conditions).
I rather doubt we'll see anything like an actual war. It's not like Greece is prepared to take on the UN or even the rest of the EU, and my reading of the leaders is that they are corrupt and vile, not delusional. An embargo on non-essential goods combined with a military threat would cause the government to cave rapidly - of course doing this would also likely start a wave of terrorism by Greek fascists, which would be its own problem.
I could be wrong, but I think there's a good chance that an embargo alone would bring down the government quite rapidly. Unfortunately, at that point Greece would be a chaotic mess with a high potential for violence, so moving in peace-keeping troops would be a truly excellent idea. However, waiting until the Golden Dawn gets it's hooks in deep is likely a horrible idea, because they might just be sufficiently fanatical to resist a military threat. It wouldn't be a long war by any means, but would an even bigger and bloodier mess than the other options.
The big problem is, the people (at least the Greeks I know) really kind of hate their government, which is busy breaking constitutional protections left and right... and the government is more than half in bed with the Germans.
In fact, my reading of it is that the Germans actively colluded with the government to drive the economy into the dirt.
The "problem" with the Greek constitution--which was established after their last civil war, in the mid-70's, so they all know EXACTLY what their Founding Fathers intended--is that it created a pretty damned functional socialist society. The people would pay taxes, and those taxes would be used to take care of the people. Greeks as a whole are smart and very hard-working, and their economy was really strong--as strong or stronger than the US economy was under Clinton.
Then they joined the EU. The drachma was converted over to the euro, and things that had cost the equivalent of only a few cents were suddenly a few dollars... and the prices didn't go back down. And because the economy was so strong, Greece suddenly started getting LOTS of EU immigrants, whom they could not turn away... and they were required by the Greek constitution to provide them with the same socialist benefits as the Greek natives, even though they weren't working or paying taxes.
While this was all going on (and stop me if this sounds familiar) the government, encouraged by German bankers, was passing laws that gutted the tax system which supported the benefits required by the constitution, making it so that corporations and rich people were paying much much less than their fair share.
However, the government didn't want the Greek people to realize what they'd done, so they cooked the books and borrowed a whole lot of money they had no intention of paying off. (Because, after all, that would have required raising taxes again.)
And then the house of cards fell in... right on top of the people of Greece. Who, understandably enough, are not pleased with their government, the Germans who encouraged the theft and are now demanding austerity but don't seem to feel that taxing the rich ought to be an option, the EU whose laws required them to accept floods of immigrants and then take care of them, or the immigrants themselves, many of whom didn't bother with the minimal paperwork required to emigrate.
So, those rioters who don't like the idea of being interned? I have somewhat less sympathy for them than most of the rest of the world does, I suspect.
(This is seriously NOT the same case as illegal immigrants in the US; a large portion of our economy actually depends on them and the government is actually forbidden from providing them benefits, and the same is absolutely NOT true of Greece.)
And I have the least amount of sympathy of all for Germany, which, as far as I can tell, is doing its level best to destroy the bits of European economy that it doesn't outright control, with no regard whatsoever for the people getting squashed underfoot.
I'm all for free immigration within the EU. However, I'm right there with you wrt lack of sympathy with the German government, austerity is enriching Germany at the expense of Southern Europe, various immigrants to those nations, and pretty much everyone else. It's starting to look to me like the Euro is a bad idea, at least as long as it's effectively under German control.
Indeed. A test of bare minimum competency for a government is its ability to protect its citizens from outside aggression & internal atrocities. We shall see if the EU manages the second test wrt Hungary, rather than simply sitting around and letting actual fascist have free reign over a nation. If the EU can't manage to help Hungary, then between that and the economic travesty its become means that IMHO leaving the EU would make a whole lot of sense for the member nations.
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2013-08-10 11:58 pm (UTC)And...
Date: 2013-08-11 12:37 am (UTC)Re: And...
Date: 2013-08-11 12:59 am (UTC)I could be wrong, but I think there's a good chance that an embargo alone would bring down the government quite rapidly. Unfortunately, at that point Greece would be a chaotic mess with a high potential for violence, so moving in peace-keeping troops would be a truly excellent idea. However, waiting until the Golden Dawn gets it's hooks in deep is likely a horrible idea, because they might just be sufficiently fanatical to resist a military threat. It wouldn't be a long war by any means, but would an even bigger and bloodier mess than the other options.
Re: And...
Date: 2013-08-11 01:05 am (UTC)Re: And...
Date: 2013-08-11 07:01 am (UTC)In fact, my reading of it is that the Germans actively colluded with the government to drive the economy into the dirt.
The "problem" with the Greek constitution--which was established after their last civil war, in the mid-70's, so they all know EXACTLY what their Founding Fathers intended--is that it created a pretty damned functional socialist society. The people would pay taxes, and those taxes would be used to take care of the people. Greeks as a whole are smart and very hard-working, and their economy was really strong--as strong or stronger than the US economy was under Clinton.
Then they joined the EU. The drachma was converted over to the euro, and things that had cost the equivalent of only a few cents were suddenly a few dollars... and the prices didn't go back down. And because the economy was so strong, Greece suddenly started getting LOTS of EU immigrants, whom they could not turn away... and they were required by the Greek constitution to provide them with the same socialist benefits as the Greek natives, even though they weren't working or paying taxes.
While this was all going on (and stop me if this sounds familiar) the government, encouraged by German bankers, was passing laws that gutted the tax system which supported the benefits required by the constitution, making it so that corporations and rich people were paying much much less than their fair share.
However, the government didn't want the Greek people to realize what they'd done, so they cooked the books and borrowed a whole lot of money they had no intention of paying off. (Because, after all, that would have required raising taxes again.)
And then the house of cards fell in... right on top of the people of Greece. Who, understandably enough, are not pleased with their government, the Germans who encouraged the theft and are now demanding austerity but don't seem to feel that taxing the rich ought to be an option, the EU whose laws required them to accept floods of immigrants and then take care of them, or the immigrants themselves, many of whom didn't bother with the minimal paperwork required to emigrate.
So, those rioters who don't like the idea of being interned? I have somewhat less sympathy for them than most of the rest of the world does, I suspect.
(This is seriously NOT the same case as illegal immigrants in the US; a large portion of our economy actually depends on them and the government is actually forbidden from providing them benefits, and the same is absolutely NOT true of Greece.)
And I have the least amount of sympathy of all for Germany, which, as far as I can tell, is doing its level best to destroy the bits of European economy that it doesn't outright control, with no regard whatsoever for the people getting squashed underfoot.
Re: And...
Date: 2013-08-11 07:35 am (UTC)Re: And...
Date: 2013-08-11 07:39 am (UTC)